Dress for success
Hung Vu’s attack on University tradition regarding gameday attire (“Putting on airs”, Nov. 17) is wildly misinformed and should be rejected by students and alumni. His view is the product of a campaign on the part of the athletics department and Al Groh to artificially manufacture and re-brand the atmosphere in Scott Stadium, dating back to 2003.
Vu’s call for the adoption of orange t-shirts as necessary attire to be a good fan in Scott Stadium has been Groh’s claim since he appointed himself head of the fan police. Football results do not support the case. The most heavily promoted “orange-out” efforts in recent years, including last year’s nationally-televised embarrassment against Southern Cal in front of a stadium-record crowd, have routinely failed. While Vu cites several Southeastern Conference schools where students also traditionally dress up in the stands, he fails to recognize any of the schools from which the “sea of orange” was copied: Clemson, Virginia Tech, and Tennessee. Clearly, the University (U.S. News no. 24, no. 2 public) is more appropriately linked to Vanderbilt (U.S. News no. 17) and Georgia (U.S. News no. 58, no. 21 public) than the t-shirt schools.
Short institutional memory is likely responsible for Vu’s failure to note that the University did field a successful football team on a consistent basis within recent memory. The Cavaliers won at least seven games each season for thirteen years from 1987-1999. During that span, Virginia claimed its only two ACC championships, and attained a no. 1 national ranking for three weeks during the 1990 season. The greatest victory in Virginia football history occurred not during the “sea of orange” era, but rather at a well-dressed Scott Stadium in 1995.
The Cavalier Daily’s 2005 lead editorial (“The dress-up debate”, Sept. 1, 2005) summed up the situation well to the then-incoming class of 2009:
“The tradition of dressing up for games has a great many things going for it. It set the University apart and demonstrated our trademark class, distinguishing us from the proverbial State U. It was a selling point for the school, right up there with Thomas Jefferson and the Rotunda. More than that, though, donning refined apparel built unity among the student body in a way throwing on a free T-shirt twenty minutes before game time never can. There’s just something quintessentially “The University” about that… This is purely an issue of tradition and how the student body wants to present itself to the outside world. After all, some of the rowdiest student bodies, especially at schools in the Southeastern Conference, manage to combine polished dress and sportsmanlike hostility.”
Traditions may change; however, there is no reasonable basis to carry on the assault against traditional gameday attire as Vu endeavors. Indeed, fans in Scott Stadium should generate noise on defense and unite in singing the Good Ole Song and cheering for first downs. Anyone present on a November night in 1995, along with anyone possessing common sense, would have to concur with the Managing Board’s past editorial that a tie or string of pearls does not impair a University student’s ability to so effectively engage in supporting the team. I suggest Vu’s “culprit” is simply the extremely poor product we have recently witnessed on the field.
Logan Riddick
CLAS ‘07
The University (US News no. 24, no. 2 public) has a lower starting salary than the Polytechnic Institute (US news no. 71, no.29 public). Bring the Benz around please, oh and don’t forget the dry cleaning.
Awesome letter, Logan. Guys in ties, girls in pearls.
To VTHokie: get a life. U.Va. students don’t even entertain the idea that your college is on the same academic level with the University, so you are simply wasting your breath (or in this case, your keyboard keys).
The University has technically never actually won the ACC in football. The University has tied twice for 1st place, but had tie breakers over them.
In 95 they had the tiebreaker over FSU. Which is why we went to the peach bowl if memory serves me correct.
Jonah,
I was accepted to both schools and chose VT, simply because most of you come off as snotty. I agree
that your college may be on a different level academically but VTHokie makes a good point. You guys study a lot harder to make less money apparently lol. This article is about attire for a football game. The whole guy wear ties, girls were pearls things is ridicolous. The way you dress doesn’t make you any better fans or students.
Please tell me what the US News ranking has to do with what wahoo’s wear to football games and the outcome on the field?
ROTFLMAO!!! Man, you just can’t make this kind of stuff up. This article is “Exhibit A” as to why UVA will never have a big-time football program and why VT will always be the big dog in the state of Virginia.
Oh, and Jonah, you and the rest of the students at UVA might not want to “entertain” the idea that VT at at the same level academically, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is. The myth of UVA’s academic superiority is a classic example of a something that’s repeated so often and for so long that everyone just automatically assumes that it’s still true even though it isn’t.
Jonah,
How does it feel to be poor? Where is my dry cleaning and my starbucks?
Regards,
VTHokie
Why would you go to tech over UVa? Unless you’re a football player, are getting scholarship/grant money, or plan on being engineer…I don’t understand why you would choose Tech.
UVa trumps VT hands down academically, socially, in name recognition/reputation, in tradition, and, last but not least, location. Charlottesville vs Blacksburg? Haha
There is certainly some truth to the charge that some UVa kids are “snotty”. I noticed it at school, but it certainly isn’t as pervasive as haters try to make it out to be.
True story: A kid at my high school told all of our friends he got into UVa but chose Tech. I told him I would give him $500 bucks if he brought me his acceptance letter as proof.
He never did.
PJ-
Because Tech has a higher average starting salary. We are also the #1 Architecture school. Our business school dean, Dean Sorensen, served as chairman for the AACSB. You can thank him for re-accrediting McIntyre.
Regards,
VTHokie
I don’t know about the tie-break scenario that year, but FSU went to the Orange Bowl. That’s better than the Peach. But that could have been due to bowl selection rules and not the tie-break status of the conference standings.
Mr. Riddick quotes a 2005 editorial from the Cavalier Daily, which states:
“…donning refined apparel built unity among the student body in a way throwing on a free T-shirt twenty minutes before game time never can.”
The fatal flaw in this argument is that it suggests the student body is relying upon apparel as a source of unity in the first place. While Al Groh is a buffoon and a horrible football coach, he at least recognized the need to build a more passionate and committed fan base — specifically among the student body.
The fact that UVA alumni and students are squabbling over apparel perfectly illustrates just how far UVA is from addressing that need. While UVA alums and students are sitting in front of their computers typing editorials about apparel and/or standing in front of their closets picking out ties, Hokies are buying up tickets to the VT-UVA game and turning Scott Stadium into Lane Stadium North.
I think the salary difference was like 500 dollars or some other pretty small amount (I can’t remember specifics). Bottom line, you can make a good living with a degree from either school.
Where UVA goes ahead is that those rankings everyone has mentioned probably give easier access to the top graduate schools, and the folks from UVA who are making the real money are generally the ones with graduate law/business degrees. An engineering background gives a great opportunity to do very well, but not as much a chance to make into the upper 6 figures and beyond, there is more of a limit (again – GENERALLY – there are obvious exceptions).
But none of this matters to this argument. I’m sure that I speak for about 90% of alumni and about 99% of those alumni who donate the real money to the athletic department, when i say we would all prefer the guys in ties and girls in pearls. Good article above.
I love how you VT guys can’t even spell a simple word like ridiculous (Jon).
At the risk of introducing a praeteritio,
#1 Undergraduate Business School
Highest African-American Graduation rate among public universities
A plethora of undergraduate and graduate programs ranked in the top 10 in a wide variety of disciplines
Hosts the National Radio Astronomy Observatory and the Rare Book School (as well as one of the original copies of the Declaration of Independence at the Special Collections Library)
Third among state-supported universities in “elite” graduate placement
Largest per-capita endowment of any public university in the United States (by a wide margin
but I guess y’all do have a pretty sweet football team.
Have fun with your large salaries and calling me a peasant. Personally, I prefer a quality education over a cakewalk that will allow me to lease a 1-series a few years after my graduation. That’s the liberal arts major in me, I suppose.
I wonder how many UVa grads/students read VT’s university newspaper so they can take shots at VT in the comments sections. Probably none.
If you visit any other Southern school with class (e.g. UNC, Wake, Vandy), you’ll notice that the students their dress well. Yea maybe those schools won’t ever become national football powerhouses, but that’s also not a real priority or a major reason those students chose to attend their respective schools.
I attended Wake Forest and while athletics wasn’t a major factor in my decision, I’d be lying if I said I didn’t care what conference schools were in when I applied. But I wasn’t willing to sacrifice education for a few wins on Saturday (and you know what I got those anyway). The deciding factor was the academic reputation of Wake, not how many national titles they have won. If you want to base your college experience and value on how well your football team does (EVEN THOUGH YOU DO NOT PLAY) then by all means go to Vtech.
VTHokie, the “higher average starting salary” figure that you like to quote came from an unscientific study with selection bias significant enough to make all the results questionable:
1) Participation was voluntary & online
2) Those who attended any sort of grad school were excluded
Now a very large percentage of the more driven and intelligent students at UVA attend grad/law/med school, in contrast to Vtech, where their “brighter” kids go work. This alone biases that study. Further, the fact that participation is voluntary (and online), leads to engineering/tech schools doing significantly better in the rankings.
Heck, if we follow those rankings, Dartmouth is better than Harvard. It’s the same selection effect there, brighter Harvard undergrads go to law/med/grad school, average ones work, while more of the brighter Dartmouth kids go to work immediately.
The fact that you can’t recognize this indicates you’re not the brightest bulb out there, so I highly doubt you will drive a Mercedes.
I prefer money over vaunted,subjective rankings and a worthless, economically non-contributory liberal arts education: exactly why I have a job and most of my UVA friends do not…English majors mean nothing. But that’s just me. Virginia Tech is far from a cakewalk by the way, but you would know because you went here?
By the way, Newsweek rankings are largely based on surveys handed out to students. We’re not ranked because our students didn’t fill out the survey, because rankings are dumb. You cannot possibly tell Harvard, Stanford, Georgetown, Yale, Northwestern, Cal-Berkeley, Michigan, and Notre Dame undergrads that you have the #1 Business program. HA, that is laughable. You may be the best public school, but you are not in the same discussion as Duke and Harvard: quit pretending.
@ Jonah Takalua (10:12)…
Yes, you are correct it is paralipsis, and an inane use of it in fact.
By same logic, Tech grads could mention 7 Congressional Medal of Honor winners giving their lives to defend this country and for what it stands. Then compare that to success of your lax team.
indeed, a praeteritio! you have compared your accolades to their football team. Apples to oranges. Perhaps, you should take that “rhetoric” class again. If not, at the very least, know what you are talking about or keep your mouth shut.
kind regards.
@Mr. Excuse S,
Before you tell me to take another rhetoric class, I hope that you see the beauty in the double praeteritio; c’mon, you have to appreciate that.
If I wanted to play your game, I could name distinguished alumni of the University such as Woodrow Wilson, three Kennedys, Walter Reed, three Supreme Court justices, a Secretary General of NATO, Georgia O’Keefe, four NASA astronauts, the Director of the Human Genome Project, Paul Tudor Jones….eh, I’m starting to get tired of lists. Like you said though, apples to oranges.
And UVA lax is sweet, of course. This month, they’ve raised over $20,000 for Prostate Cancer Research. Are you saying that Hokies love cancer and want men to die?
@ Jonah Takalua.
LOL. Nice try. I’m an alum of both.
As for the cancer… UVA lax did the $20K in one month. Tech fans donated half of that at one game (I believe it was Boston College).
Stupid argument, but carry on…
Do UVA students wear ties and pearls to LAX matches and basketball games? Just curious.
“I wonder how many UVa grads/students read VT’s university newspaper so they can take shots at VT in the comments sections. Probably none.”
You are right. This is mainly due to the fact that even after you get a degree from UVA, most of you pansies still can not read.
@ Mr. Excuse S,
If you’re an alum of both, why are you so hostile to me? I made the comments that I made in order to spark some of the more humorous comments that followed. I honestly have nothing against Tech, I have a problem with people who think that they’re better than others because they went to a certain school or they have a certain last name. Why don’t you get down off of your horse for a minute and show a fellow U.Va. alumnus a little respect?
I don’t for one second believe that I’ll get that respect because you sound like an arrogant jerk who enjoys putting people down to make yourself feel more superior. That’s pretty sad. I hope you have enough money to fill what I perceive to be a rather large void within your heart.
@Rhesus
It’s “cannot,” not “can not.”
Funny that every discussion on any topic results in wahoo’s playing the academic card. I mean every discussion. LOL!!!
RE: VT and UVA
Both schools are great, both schools have great folks, each school has its own unique strengths. Clearly there are strengths at UVA that are unmatched at VT. And just as clearly, for some folks, the institutionalized rampant elitist snobbery at UVA is simply unbearable. The very existence of these attitudes is horrifying as a start — but the fact that a significant population in Charlottesville openly incubates and nurtures this behavior is just utterly abhorrent.
The reason these occasional articles (and the comments that follow) bring Hokies out of the woodwork is that this attitude is just so unbelievably offensive. Do you get that? It offends people — because its incredibly offensive. What weird planet do folks come from where open and unmitigated elitism is acceptable? That’s what’s going on in a certain population at UVA.
I think UVA is a great school, really. Its a great town and obviously a great education. I’m encouraging my niece in her application process there. But I’m also trying to gently guide her away from the influence of douchebaggery. I don’t lump all UVA folks into that stereotype, but there certainly are some total a-holes around there — and there are a lot of them, its not a myth.
I threw away my Part 2 application to UVA, I earned undergrad and graduate engineering degrees at VT.
Holy paralipsis, Batman! “Mr. Excuse S” used TWO gosh-golly really big P words from his “Word of the Day” desk calendar in just one sentence!
@Dave,
You think that U.Va. is the only place on the planet with douchebags? Last time I visited Blacksburg, three guys took turns flattening my nose because I had a U.Va. underarmor warmup shirt underneath the plaid shirt that I was wearing underneath my winter coat. Just in case you didn’t get that, maybe about 2.5 inches of the V and crossed sabers reached their eyes. That was enough for them to come over to me at a party and demand that I take off my warmup shirt. I refused and offered to leave the party, so they decided it would be a great idea to beat on me.
Three guys. Against one guy. For wearing a tshirt.
Yeah, of course there isn’t any douchebaggery at Tech.
The main reason the student body should not wear shirt and ties is that is makes UVa look like a place for wimps, wussies, and cornballs (maybe it is?). Listen to colin cowherd rip UVa a new one and you will understand:
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RidU6ILUQNE
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zKxcXfKYgY&feature=related
The townies are better fans than the students and that’s pathetic.
The final argument against shirts and ties is that it hurts recruiting. In general, athletic black people don’t want a bunch WASPs and people at the extreme of white culture cheering them on. Honestly, who in their right mind would want to play for a bunch of stuck up rich kids wearing suits? In fact, recruits would rather have rednecks cheering for them (and so they choose Tech). The exception, of course, is Tiki Barber types. Good luck finding 70 Tiki Barbers to fill the roster. Please realize that the student section at scott stadium is a huge turnoff to recruits (as is the UVa culture in general).
Prove it Jonah. Tired of these made up sensational stories to prove a point from your fans.
some info Hokies might not have heard about regarding the missing VT student. Took a while for some of it to “come out” in a local Charlottesville free newspaper – but, interestingly, nowhere else. STuff about the basketball team and being spotted near the rotunda early morning.
http://www.readthehook.com/blog/index.php/2009/11/15/concerned-witnesses-before-hitching-morgan-harrington-caused-worry/
@Jonah, sorry you got beat up, that sucks. But I’m pretty sure you missed the point of my post. Commentary on elitism in Charlottesville has very little to do with you getting beat up in Blacksburg — unless you said something clever like “oh yeah well you’ll work for me one day.”
FYI, the explicit definition of “douchebaggery” is a variable blend of over-the-top New Jerseyness (spike hair and spray-tan) and elitist-popcollar-pastel-plaid sweatervestery. There’s plenty to bitch about in Blacksburg, but this particular issue is uniquely at home on “The Grounds” at “The University”.
And let me clarify: I have no real complaint with a sweater vest or a tie or whatever. That’s a joke, mostly. Its the snobbery that is often wrapped in a sweater vest that is at issue.
The people who spike their hair and spray tan (does anyone outside of sigma chi really do this?) are not the same people who are elitist-popcollar-pastel-plaid sweatervestery. The spiked hair segment of the larger douchebag family is much more common at Tech.
It tends to be the segment of UVa who came from prep schools who perpetuate the elitist attitudes (and of course the followers and poseurs). A lot of my friends went to Tech, so I never understood this deep seated desire to feel superior. Most UVa students do not walk around with this attitude.
I’d bet that those kinds of attitudes are abating over time (hopefully at least).
In the end, it didn’t matter what UVA fans wore. The better team won and most UVA fans headed for the exits during the 4th quarter. Interesting.
You can cheer just as hard wearing a tie or pearls as in an orange fever t-shirt. As a Wahoo alum living in the deep south I attend many SEC games with my friends. Many southern schools have a contingent of men in jackets and women in sundresses, as well as, those in more spirited attire. It is obvious that their football programs are distinguished from ours for a number of reasons, including the obvious which is the coaches care more about recruiting players than setting up a dress code. It’s not about the clothes you are wearing but about how hard you cheer for your team. I think a lot of Virginia fans could learn to cheer a little harder, a little longer, and a little louder.
First off, screw all you hokies for coming here and putting all your random garbage out on our lawn of discussion. So no more comments from the peanut gallery please.
Second, I REALLY hated that dress up crap at UVA, and the “orange fever” is the only thing I liked from the groh era. I’m a wahoo alum, and even I think it is a little uppity. Then maybe because my voice is coming from someone that is not part of the “frat” order. The only ones that liked that crap were fraternity brothers and sorority and sorority sisters, and continue to be the only ones that want to hold on to that tradition. Frankly, it was embarrassing, and I don’t feel like it showed any school pride, but just something remnant of the good ol’ boys southern culture. I may not have a lot of salient facts or what not to back up my statements, but it is my opinion and one that others I know agree with.
It’s pretty funny how the ties vs. t-shirts debate never seems to die, like Jason Voorhees or Freddy Krueger.
That being said, I think it’s pretty clear at this point that the “Sea of Orange” has been a failure in terms of “creating a better fan atmosphere” at Scott Stadium. The final two seasons of Al Groh’s tenure have been decisive proof that. Fans are dispirited. Many season ticket holders stopped coming to games. And a majority of the “new” traditions created by the athletic department — including the idiocy of raising a flag before every game with a slogan (“The Power of Orange!”) that sounds like the school is announcing a new bathroom cleaner — are positively terrible. This certainly isn’t to say that people should stop wearing orange t-shirts to the games if they want. But it does make that insistent “UVA’s team is failing because of ties and sundresses” mantra ring fairly hollow.
Mr. Riddick does a pretty good job of shooting down most of Hung Vu’s arguments, so it seems unnecessary to repeat them here, although the assertion from another poster that ties and sundresses “hurts recruiting” is flat out ridiculous — otherwise you wouldn’t see any good high school players heading off to UGA, Georgia Tech, Auburn, Alabama, or Ole Miss. George Welsh also didn’t seem to have a lot of problems in that department during his winning seasons in the 1990’s either.
Ultimately, there’s no question that “guys in ties, girls in pearls” is a pretty long-standing tradition at Scott Stadium, like many other southern schools. Look at the student section of Auburn, and you’ll see a pool of white button downs and striped ties and bow ties in the stands. Check out a Georgia Tech game on TV, and the camera will inevitably pan across the sundresses worn by female students and yellow oxfords and ties worn by a lot of the guys. Nobody worries about it. And there’s not much of a “debate” to speak of. The students cheer just as loudly in ties as they do in hoodies and t-shirts. Their main focus is the team winning its games. Not being the fan police and worrying about whether a fellow student is sporting a tie.
However, what I don’t understand is why everything at UVA — thanks to the Sea of Orange crew — has to be a case of “you’re either with the orange t-shirt crowd or the tie/sundress crowd.” If you want to go traditional and wear a tie, do it. If you’d rather throw on a t-shirt or a UVA hoodie, that’s cool — there’s no set rule in place (although I sometimes think that people arguing for seeing female students/alumni in frumpy t-shirts instead of sundresses are out of their minds). Why not mess around with both traditions? Mix it up a little? What if the frats, first years and male students taking a date to the game wore button downs and ties in nods to tradition, but other students/alumni just went in t-shirts, or wore a UVA tie with their t-shirt or body-paint?
Ultimately, this isn’t a huge issue. But I think we have to stop being so worried about what Colin Cowherd says or which insults the Virginia Tech Hokies, the latter of which are basically going to hate us anyway, are throwing in our direction and figuratively spit in their eye. Ties and sundresses seem to drive them nuts. For that reason alone, it’s worth keeping ‘em around.
Logan Riddick – you are a freaking idiot. and a cracker.