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AG says visitors may carry guns

Cuccinelli states University policy does not carry force of law; administrators work on response to opinion

Virginia Attorney General and University alumnus Ken Cuccinelli opined in July that the University's policy prohibiting guns on Grounds does not carry the force of law, and therefore does not fully extend to those with a permit to carry firearms.

Although students, faculty and staff are still subject to the policy, visitors are legally allowed to openly carry firearms on Grounds - though not in University buildings, Cuccinelli spokesperson Brian Gottstein said in an email. Visitors who possess concealed carry permits, however, may bring their weapons into buildings.

"Because the University adopted a policy rather than a regulation, it has not 'otherwise prohibited by law' persons with a concealed carry permit from possessing a handgun, and, therefore, the policies may not be used to prohibit persons with such a permit from carrying a concealed firearm into the buildings covered by the policy," Cuccinelli wrote.

Crucial to Cuccinelli's opinion is the distinction between a "regulation" and a "policy." The opinion notes a Virginia Supreme Court case involving a similar gun ban at George Mason University. In that case, the ban was deemed legal because it was enforced through a regulation, which carries the force of law, and the scope was limited to the confines of buildings and other "sensitive areas" at the school. A policy like the University's ban on guns, meanwhile, does not carry similar weight.

"A policy is something that a governing body of a university could pass, while a regulation has to be created by a university through the Virginia Register Act, which means the proposed regulations have to be posted for public disclosure before being adopted," Gottstein said. "A 'policy' undergoes no such formal process, thus it is not afforded 'the force of law.'"

In accordance with Cuccinelli's opinion, the University has begun to review its policy, University spokesperson Carol Wood said in an email.

"We quickly began a review and are now working on how best to respond as a university given the Attorney General's opinion, and any changes will have to go through a state review process," Wood said, adding that there is no indication how long the process could take.

Cuccinelli's opinion faces mixed reaction in and around Grounds.

Del. David Toscano, D-Charlottesville, believes the University should have autonomy when deciding what to allow on its Grounds, whether the individual is a student, faculty member or visitor.

"I believe that the decisions about whether or not to permit guns on the Grounds of the University of Virginia should rest with the Board of Visitors and the administration of the University, and not with the heavy hand of the attorney general of the commonwealth," Toscano said.

Second-year College student Carter McCabe said she can understand the legal reasoning behind Cuccinelli's ruling, but she thinks the safety of University students and personnel must come first.

"Because it's a school, and they have to protect their students, the University should make that decision," McCabe said. "It makes me nervous that random visitors can carry weapons, especially in a building."

Fourth-year Engineering student Daniel Salmon said the University's ability to restrict his Second Amendment rights makes him equally nervous.

"If you leave it up to the University, you maybe make it more fair, but you leave the University and other organizations open to take the rights of citizens away due to their affiliations with certain institutions," Salmon said.


Published August 25, 2011 in News

Commentary

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Ray
(08/25/11 2:34am)
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I hope UVA takes a stand against gun proliferation craziness.\n(Ken is a dangerous man.)


Sean
(08/25/11 6:00am)
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Guns do not kill people. UVA kills people. 57 infants killed in the UVA hospital in 2010.


Tory II, Illinois
(08/25/11 6:38am)
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If the law allows University administrators to restrict Constitution rights, they will.

Why does America have a Constitution ? The Bill of Rights limits or restricts the govt (university administrators are govt employees). The first amendment prohibits the govt from creating a law that limits or restricts what we can say about the govt, and the 2nd amendment prohibits govt from regulating guns (to help us enforce the 1st amendment). Therefore,

the 2nd amendment was written and accepted to stop university administrators from doing what they are planning to do (regulate guns).


Amy
(08/25/11 9:20am)
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Sorry, Tory, but the 2nd Amendment does NOT say that the government can't regulate guns. It says there is a right to bear arms, but it does not say that legislatures cannot form laws to reasonably limit who can bear arms and/or in which places. Do you advocate for absolutely anyone to be able to carry a gun, including homicidal maniacs who have been admitted to mental facilities in the past?


Tom
(08/25/11 9:40am)
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Amy the 2nd Amendment says "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." That means the government can't even regulate it.

I'm ashamed that my alma mater would try to take away people's rights like this. If there are homicidal maniacs out there armed or unarmed, I certainly want everyone to be able to defend themselves.


Semi
(08/25/11 10:26am)
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I would like to know the background of why the AG even made this opinion. Are there hoards of gun-wielding visitors just clamoring to bring their weapons on Grounds?


Anonymous
(08/25/11 10:37am)
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Amy --

If a homocidal maniac cannot be trusted to own a gun, why was he released from custody? Any of the following could happen:

* The maniac steals a gun from someone else\n* The maniac uses knives or baseball bats to kill people\n* The maniac runs people over with his car\n* The maniac buys a gun on the black market

If someone is not so dangerous that they need to be kept in prison, then their rights should be restored -- all of their rights, not just the ones that you happen to think they should have.


Mother of College Student
(08/25/11 10:49am)
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For Amy (and others)...no one here is advocating that criminals/mentally ill/homicidal maniacs be allowed access to firearms. At the same time, no LAW will prevent those same people from acquiring weapons of any kind. Even IF we were able to effectively prevent bad people from getting guns, there are many other items which can be used as weapons. Here are some indisputable facts:

1. The police do not have a duty to protect the individual...this has been consistently upheld by the courts\n2. The police are NOT ALLOWED to do anything until a crime is committed\n3. The police are almost always not there when a crime is committed and can take several minutes to arrive on the scene after being called in an emergency\n4. The college is UNABLE to guarantee the safety of the students/faculty/staff\n5. Students with concealed carry permits are a.)over 21 years old, b.)passed a background check, c.)required to pass a training course to qualify for the permit\n6. Self defense is a God given right, a natural instinct common to all living things. Government does not have the right to take that away from anyone, including college students, professors, etc.

Nothing in the above statements is meant to diminish the services provided by law enforcement or the staff of our colleges. I am simply pointing out that each individual has a right and responsibility for safeguarding their own well-being and is also solely responsible for their own actions. Therefore, when our institutions of higher learning deprive individuals of the ability to defend themselves by denying lawful carry, they are depriving us our basic human rights.


Rich7553
(08/25/11 10:59am)
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Please feel free to provide reports of ANY incidents where a homicidal maniac has been deterred from committing a crime either on or off campus because of a "no firearms" sign, policy, or law.

The critics of firearms conveniently and consistently forget that the vast majority of mass killings occur in so-called "gun-free zones". Whether or not the University of Virginia cares to admit it, violent crime occurs on campus just as it does off campus. The fanciful notion that university campuses are somehow immune from crime and should be considered "safe havens" is based in ideology, not reality. Have you forgotten Virginia Tech? At the time the shooter entered the building where the majority of the slaughter took place, police were already on campus investigating the murders of his first two victims. The shooter had nine full minutes to inflict carnage totally defenseless staff and students. The "no firearms" signs didn't protect them. The "no firearms" policy didn't protect them. The police present on campus didn't protect them. They died because they were prohibited from protecting themselves.


David
(08/25/11 11:07am)
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Since criminals, by definition, will ignore laws meant to control their actions any "Gun Free Zone" is really a "Criminal Safety Zone" or a "Victim Disarmament Zone". Criminals have admitted that if they even suspect the intended victim is armed they will chose a different victim, since they don't want to be injured during the commission of a crime. Any rule that prohibits the carrying of weapons only disarms the law abiding, making it easier to for the criminals to enjoy safety while working.


Ray
(08/25/11 1:46pm)
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Canada has strict gun control with no carry, and has lower crime rate than U.S.


Philip Van Cleave
(08/25/11 2:50pm)
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Ray, there was a massacre in a Canadian university about 8 years ago. So much for gun control.

Cuccinelli was really just reiterating what the Virginia Supreme Court had ruled earlier.

Criminals know no bounds, courts have ruled that colleges don't have to guarantee anyone's safety. People need to be able to protect their life - they only get one.


BHirsh
(08/25/11 3:01pm)
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Ray - Australia and Great Britain have severely restricted gun ownership and banned possession and carry of handguns, and their violent crime rates are skyrocketing.

I mean, since you want to make irrelevant comparisons....


Ray
(08/25/11 4:58pm)
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It was 5 years ago and one person was killed\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawson_College_shooting

If you were armed there, I doubt you could have done anything about it.

Regarding Australia and GB, read this\nhttp://www.guninformation.org/

The 2nd amendment NRA types keep blowing the same dog whistle over and over.

Less guns = less violence


Ray
(08/25/11 5:10pm)
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Found another Canadian Univerisity 'massacre', 4 dead in '92\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concordia_University_massacre\nled to tighter gun control laws


an idea
(08/25/11 10:18pm)
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since Ken Cuccinelli is so intent on violating the safety of our University, I suppose it's only fair if we ever see Cuccinelli on grounds, to use a concealed carry to shoot him.


an idea
(08/25/11 10:20pm)
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Castle doctrine. Cuccinelli should be hereby recognised as an unwanted intruder.


Ray
(08/26/11 7:12am)
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"since Ken Cuccinelli is so intent on violating the safety of our University, I suppose it’s only fair if we ever see Cuccinelli on grounds, to use a concealed carry to shoot him."

I don't know why my two brief posts yesterday in response to Philip Van Cleave and BHirsh containing a wikipedia and another link with data to challenging their arguments weren't allowed here. Since they did not otherwise violate the "Comment Policy", I assume they were held up as potential 'spam' for 'review' because I created two separate posts within minutes of each other.

They had no hint of being inflammatory as the one above.\n(Perhaps the censor at the Daily has a different political view on the subject at hand?)


JD
(08/26/11 4:26pm)
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wasnt VT a gun free zone? hm, so much for that idea..

oddly, you never hear about Appalachian State where an active shooter was stopped by :gasp: armed students. those pesky facts.

just because you cant trust yourself with a tool doesnt mean others dont. get over your irrational fears.

according to SCOTUS the police have no legal authority to protect you (at least 3 cases including one in DC and one in MD). another loss for the anti-gun insanity.

the 1st amendment can be regulated... only if it violates the rights of others. same goes for the 2A except, "safety" is not a right nor is it reasonable to think not being able to effectively defend ones self is somehow "safe" (see active shooter incidents in "gun free zones").


AntiCitizenOne
(08/26/11 5:35pm)
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Whoever "an idea" is, I hope your IP is traced so the Virginia State Police can pay you a visit.

The Tuscon maniac had a repeat history of making death threats against public officials which is a felony. I suggest you check your mouth before you give the rest of us CCW'ers examples to use against you.

Unless Mr. Cucinelli is running around with a firearm screaming bloody murder in your home/university, he does not pose any imminent mortal threat to you. You are basically advocating killing an unarmed and nonthreatening individual. Thanks for making our case that antigunners are violent.

And some token stats:

Utah universities have concealed carry since 2006 and not a single incident has occurred. Approximately 70 other universities across the country have concealed carry on campus grounds and not one of them has had any incidents.

Vermont also has PERMITLESS carry and their crime is one of the lowest in the country.


Tess Ailshire
(08/26/11 9:18pm)
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"“Because it’s a school, and they have to protect their students, the University should make that decision,” McCabe said. “It makes me nervous that random visitors can carry weapons, especially in a building.”"

This statement confuses me. Can no one see that schools CANNOT protect their students? Was April 2007 so very long ago?


BigDaddy
(08/31/11 3:49am)
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All I can say is That one night while walking back to the dorms from the Student Center with a young lady friend we were stopped by a group of around 8 boys all between the ages of 16 to 20. they demanded our wallets and valuables. after they had our money, 2 of them started pawing my girlfriend. It was at this point I pulled out my 357 revolver that I had concealed in my ankle holster. at the sight of the gun they dropped our stuff and ran like the cowards they were. I don't know about statistics, all I know is that the mere sight of a gun stopped a crime that night. After the incident I called campus police and they finally arrived 15 minutes after the boys ran away. They said they would file a report but chances are no one would ever be caught. They also told me that if I ever brought my legal gun on campus again I could be expelled. I don't know if more guns on campus would help prevent crime, I just know that 1 gun on campus stopped a crime that night.


Sean
(08/31/11 1:54pm)
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I think a nice nasty little can of pepper spray in a purse or pocket is a better solution for UVA folks, especially at night. The thought of the corner bars filled with hammered, armed students is not a pleasant one to consider. Plus you can take out a crowd of folks with pepper spray really fast. And mistakes made with pepper spray are much better than ones made with ordinance.


Sysnanny
(09/06/11 10:53am)
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BigDaddy's story is typical; as is Sean's paranoid mischaracterization of CCW carriers, who almost never allow themselves even one adult beverage while carrying (being the grown-up (over 21) responsible (training and clean record) citizens they are. "Hammered, armed students" simpy don't happen, in Virginia or elsewhere.

The question to consider when weighing a proposal to restrict human rights is not, "do I feel good about this?" nor "will this potentially do any good?" but rather "Is there any potential for harm in this?" If yes, it's a bad idea. Especially when, as in this case, the likelihood is that it will be counterproductive, as it clearly was at VT. The mistakes made with ordinances are far worse than those with ordnance.


Sean
(09/06/11 2:26pm)
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UVA Student Andrew Alston was armed - albeit with a knife - when he stabbed Walker Sisk (to death) 20 times at Wertland and 14th. Street in the early hours of the morning on a weekend. His UVA girlfriend was even nice enough to get rid of the murder weapon for him thereafter. And his previous UVA girlfriend was even nice enough to drop her sexual assault case against him before his murder trial began. UVA made sure neither of the gal's names were ever reported by any local media. Alston served about two years and is a free man.

Happened.



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